Refrigerator Moms

[Julianna Scott] (0:09 - 1:00)
Hi, I'm Julianna Scott and I'm here with my friend Kelley Jensen and we are the Refrigerator Moms. Hello. So today we are going to do another Cold Hard Truths episode about social media, our social media edition, where Kelley finds social media posts and asks me what I think about them.

It's a fun one. And something that we are doing anyway, just a normal conversation. Yes, absolutely.

And usually I'm not the one on social media as much. So Kelley, you usually come to me with, oh my God, this is what I read. And then I usually have some reactions.

So we're just going to do that. All right, let's do it. But first, we wanted to talk a little bit about something that's getting a lot of coverage called FAFO Parenting.

FAFO Parenting. Do you want to say what it stands for?

[Kelley Jensen] (1:00 - 1:01)
Yeah.

[Julianna Scott] (1:01 - 1:22)
It means fuck around and find out. Parenting. Clever.

Yes. So clever. Yes.

Yes. Which is basically natural consequences. When done right, it's natural consequences.

When done wrong, it is stupid. Right. But basically instead of, it's kind of this reaction to helicopter parenting or coddling.

[Kelley Jensen] (1:22 - 1:24)
Or even PDA. Right. Parenting.

Right.

[Julianna Scott] (1:24 - 1:39)
It's just doing everything for your kid. Instead, it's like classic old school parenting where you're just like, okay, fine. You don't want to wear a coat and it's cold outside.

Get pneumonia. Yeah. So you don't want to eat that, go hungry, that kind of thing.

So it's natural consequence parenting.

[Kelley Jensen] (1:39 - 2:03)
It is just natural consequence. Now, some people, some of the things we've seen around social media and some of the news articles about it have gone with some crazy contrived consequences that parents dream up. And let's be clear, that's silly.

And that is not where learning happens. Learning happens where you keep the consequences natural to the behavior as possible.

[Julianna Scott] (2:03 - 2:17)
Yeah. I was reading something about that. Like parents are coming up with punishment consequences.

It's like, those aren't natural consequences. That's kind of goes against the whole FAFO thing. Yes.

But, you know, sure. If you want to make it a trendy name, go for it. But again, it's not new.

[Kelley Jensen] (2:17 - 2:33)
It's not new. And you shouldn't contrive a situation to make your child suffer. That is not going to teach them their learning.

Now, in the example of if you refuse to wear a coat, I'm not fighting with you. Go outside. And then they freeze to death, right?

And they come or freeze.

[Julianna Scott] (2:33 - 2:35)
They freeze and they come back in and get a coat.

[Kelley Jensen] (2:35 - 3:37)
And they come back in and get a coat. That is the ultimate, right? But sometimes in all fairness, it takes a couple of years.

And sometimes there's a little bit of spunk in your kid where they're not going to admit that you told them to put a jacket on. So sometimes they might have to freeze two or three times. But eventually, they're going to pick up that coat because they're cold, right?

So if they don't want what you're serving for dinner and they have a meltdown and throw their food across the floor, should you force them to pick it up? Should you force them to eat it off the floor? Probably not.

But should you go out of your way to make them food? Probably not. You should let them go to bed hungry.

Then they might communicate differently and you might have to come to the understanding that maybe you don't work so hard to prepare them, they're not going to eat anyway. Maybe you have two or three choices that are somewhat healthy that they will tolerate that aren't as much work for you. So there's a little bit of a balance.

But to contrive a situation where they're going to be doing manual labor because they refuse to eat their dinner is silly.

[Julianna Scott] (3:38 - 3:57)
And that's not even a natural consequence. But I think we definitely were natural consequence parents, especially when you've got a kid with autism where you really are picking battles enough. So if there is one where you can just not battle it and just let the natural consequence happen, I am all for that.

Sometimes it's the greatest way to teach them.

[Kelley Jensen] (3:57 - 4:03)
The best way to teach them is to let nature take its course sometimes. Fafo, parenting, cute, not now.

[Julianna Scott] (4:03 - 4:30)
This episode of Refrigerator Moms is brought to you by Brain Performance Technologies. Brain Performance Technologies is a specialty mental health clinic that offers magnetic e-resonance therapy or MERT for autistic people age three or older. MERT is a transcranial magnetic stimulation protocol that utilizes an EEG diagnostic to deliver personalized magnetic pulses to stimulate the brain and build neural pathways effective in managing autistic symptoms.

[Kelley Jensen] (4:30 - 5:57)
All right. All right. Let me have it.

This came from a PDA group and, you know, we kind of roll our eyes at some of theirs. And this is interesting because, well, let me get your opinion. We were supposed to be going away this weekend.

My 11-year-old refused to wake up, get up, get dressed. So the weekend had to be canceled. My husband's furious.

It was a special weekend for him. It was his birthday. She's now demanding that I make her pancakes.

I feel like I shouldn't make her pancakes because it's rewarding poor behavior. And my husband is furious that I would even entertain the idea of making her pancakes, but she's refusing to eat anything else. What should I do?

I'm so conflicted. So there was a lot of responses. They actually had to turn the comments off.

There were so many responses. So is she really asking about the pancakes? Well, this is, I will tell you the post that I chose to read because I think it sums up what this commenter got it right and wrong all at the same time.

The post was about a child asking her parent to make pancakes after being unable to leave the house to go to the airport on a trip. A possible reason for the pancake request is that the child is seeking reassurance from the parent. They know their inability to leave the house can cause, had caused upset.

They feel guilty for ruining everything and they will be hating themselves for it. They may even been looking forward to the trip, so they'll be mad at themselves for not being able to go.

[Julianna Scott] (5:57 - 5:58)
A lot of assumptions going on.

[Kelley Jensen] (5:58 - 6:43)
Yeah, but probably true. Right? I mean, you know, sometimes these kids physically can't leave the house, which is why you're supposed to go without them.

Right. But again, if you don't have a support system because you've isolated yourself. By asking mom to make the pancakes, it was like saying, are we okay?

Do you hate me? I feel safe. I feel scared.

I need reassurance. And that despite of everything, you'll still make me pancakes. It's not about the pancakes.

Well, I would agree it's not about the pancakes. But I would also say, if you love me, you'll do this for me, is the start of every abusive relationship. Right.

And so the best way to teach your child that it's not about the pancakes is to have a conversation about all these things she may be feeling.

[Julianna Scott] (6:43 - 6:43)
Right.

[Kelley Jensen] (6:43 - 7:21)
This is a very passive aggressive. Making the pancakes is passive aggressive, making the pancakes does nothing to further the child's communication. So there's a lot of things that need to go in and the husband is justified to be angry that this happened.

That's a whole different topic. Yes. Yeah.

So a realistic conversation about what the child can and cannot do, a realistic conversation about resources so that mom and dad, and maybe a whole weekend is too much, but you know, if it's a special birthday, a mom and dad should be able to at least go out to dinner without worrying about someone that is unable to leave the house because of whatever constraints are going on with their disability.

[Julianna Scott] (7:22 - 7:48)
If I were the post, the original poster, I would also be a little worried about my relationship too. Well, she should be, right? I mean, should I make you pancakes?

Should I not make you pancakes? But also about her husband being really upset about like not going on the trip. And you know, there's a lot of backstory there.

We don't know. Which again, always goes back to, there's a lot of context missing here. Yes.

And maybe you're just focusing on this one request about the pancakes, but there's a lot going on. Yes.

[Kelley Jensen] (7:48 - 9:19)
And the question of when your child needs reassurance that they're loved in spite of their shortcomings, how do you let them know their loves? Is it what you do for them? Is it what you make for them?

Or is it what you tell them? Right. Is it what you remind them?

Is what you reassure them? And you can reassure them that they're loved without compromising behavior. Right.

Agreed. So that was my take on that one. But again, you know, so how do you say no without saying no?

This is again, another one of these PDA ones that these people turn themselves in knots of things. We have a lot of battles over fast food. We buy fast food two days a week, but if he wants more, he has to buy it.

He's an adult. He has a part-time job. He's always harassing us to buy more.

And when we say no, he loses it and starts yelling at us, saying that we say no to everything. I just can't afford to do more than I'm doing. It's a lot too, right?

That is a lot. Some interesting responses. Okay.

Some validating his feelings, telling him when he can't have fast food, reminding him that he has his money for himself. Some horrible suggestions like just giving it to him. Oh, jeez.

It goes into this whole, don't say no, because no is a trigger. But the reality is no means no, especially your adult child. You can tiptoe around the word no, but if no is no, then you have to move on to why it's no, right?

[Julianna Scott] (9:19 - 9:55)
And I'm going to go back to what we've said about PDA parenting, where you've kicked the can down the road. You said he's how old? He's an adult.

He's an adult. So this isn't the first no means no battle or anything like that. So now you're stuck with this adult where you don't have a lot of control.

So now you're really in this position where if maybe, again, I don't have the context, so I can only speak to this little paragraph, but maybe this is something that you could have been working on 10 years prior. So you're not here.

[Kelley Jensen] (9:55 - 10:13)
And should have been. And one of the arguments that parents go back and forth with in PDA parenting groups is that, oh, if you accommodate them, they will basically come to an understanding. So you should accommodate them when they're little, but really too many parents are coming up with these comments.

[Julianna Scott] (10:13 - 10:13)
Right.

[Kelley Jensen] (10:13 - 10:15)
Well, you've accommodated it. You've accommodated it.

[Julianna Scott] (10:15 - 10:29)
So you've accommodated it, and now this is the result of accommodating it. And this is the habit that you have established. And so now you've accommodated, you've given him an allowance, you've accommodated it.

I don't know how else to say it didn't work. Or it did work.

[Kelley Jensen] (10:29 - 12:00)
You gave him what he wanted, and that was what he wants. That's his routine. Right.

So this is sort of an interesting thing. We always say that there's no real help for autism. We get into this in our off-label paper, the Scientific Method.

Autism Speaks supports legislation. So this is interesting. This came up.

We're always talking about how there's no real help for autism. We talk about this in the off-label episode. Autism Speaks is supporting legislation to empower the parents of children with autism.

It is kind of rich, right? The newly introduced Autism Family Caregivers Act of 2025 is a proposed pilot program that would fund evidence-based training for family caregivers of autistic children. That got my attention, not just because I am an autism dad, but because I know firsthand how much this kind of support is needed.

So basically, they want to give grants to non-profit organizations to teach parents about evidence-based training. Okay. Yes.

So a lot of people were not fooled by this. Of course, Autism Speaks has sort of a negative connotation among parents. Its reputation is kind of in the dumper.

Because a lot of times, they have been a non-profit that has done nothing, another keepler of the keys that has, in many parents' opinion, not done enough. And I doubt that they're...

[Julianna Scott] (12:00 - 12:07)
And to give it a little more context, I think they're the ones, in the past, they had mentioned cures and things like that.

[Kelley Jensen] (12:07 - 12:31)
Yes. And so their support of this bill, which a lot of people have, I think, rightly commented that this is a door to removing services. So basically, we'll give money to a non-profit, and they'll teach you how to parent your kid.

So then you don't have to get ABA therapy, or you don't have to get a qualified... I can't even imagine how that's going to work. More parent...

[Julianna Scott] (12:31 - 12:36)
Because again, it puts the onus on the parent, what then, to go and get that training?

[Kelley Jensen] (12:36 - 12:44)
Well, it should put the onus on the non-profit, but I think we all know that it'll get stuck at the administrative burden of a non-profit.

[Julianna Scott] (12:44 - 12:50)
Right. Again, like Autism Speaks. And how are they even going to handle the numbers of people?

[Kelley Jensen] (12:50 - 13:37)
They're not. They're going to keep the money and do very little. So here is the comment that I think, whoever wrote this, kudos to you, I hope you read this and know that I agree with everything that you're saying.

This needs to go a step further and provide grants for those to become BCBTs, BCBAs, RBTs, OTs, PTs, speech therapists, respite caregivers, and even psychiatrists, I would go so far. Right. Part of why we have to be a jack of all trades is because there is a shortage of providers, especially those that accept insurance.

So that is the crux. So if Autism Speak wants to sponsor anything, and if some of these politicians that are sponsoring this bill thinking they're doing such a good job, if RFK Jr. wants to do something that he is in a position to do, they should sponsor programs to get people licensed.

[Julianna Scott] (13:37 - 13:45)
I am just kind of floored at the proposal because now they're saying, so we're supposed to be our kids' therapists?

[Kelley Jensen] (13:45 - 13:52)
Well, I mean, I think that that is all part of Medicaid cuts, right? A way to soften the blow.

[Julianna Scott] (13:52 - 14:15)
One of the things we know, parents know more than anything, is that parents, we can't be our children's therapists. We can reinforce what they're learning in therapy, but again, that relationship between a child and a therapist, they learn differently. It's a different environment.

It's like homeschooling, you know, times a hundred.

[Kelley Jensen] (14:15 - 15:32)
Well, and then giving, you know, another layer of bureaucracy is giving money to a nonprofit. You know, it's wrong on a lot of levels. I just don't know how they can execute.

They can't. No. They can't.

It is a bill, and again, a disappointment from Autism Speaks to be supporting something that obviously has no teeth in it. So, anyway. No.

So, this is cute. I thought that I would... I picked this one because it's a win.

Okay, good. We always like a win, but it also, it points to exactly how much time and consistency is needed. Been working on potty training for three years, just today, all of a sudden, like she'd done it a thousand times before, she walked herself into the bathroom and went to the bathroom all on her own.

Just like that. I'm so proud and exhausted. I cried and jumped for joy at the same time.

She's... I think she was five or six years old. There was some stupid comments about, oh, this is going to be the end of it.

She's going to regress. That's nice. You know what?

Let her have her moment, but mostly high fives. But again, like I said, when we talk about consistency, when we talk about trial and error, when we talk about how long things take, three years, kudos to her for sticking with it. Because there is a whole trend on social media that, oh, I tried this, it didn't work.

[Julianna Scott] (15:33 - 16:06)
How long did you try? It's attention span, it's all of these things. We talk about considering how long to give something.

Also that goes to priorities too. Potty training is a big priority. That's something that you really want to be able, your child to be able to do.

For many, many reasons. I applaud her and I understand why that's a top priority and why she stuck with it so long. But I also see that people just don't have that ability to stick to it.

Stick to the grind.

[Kelley Jensen] (16:08 - 17:28)
Yeah. Because it's a grind. But good for her.

So yay. Yay for that. See, what else I got here for you?

I feel like myself and my partner are in the trenches with sleep and meltdowns. We are broken. I guess I'm asking, how do people cope?

We are really working hard at co-regulation because her meltdowns are a 10 out of 10, hitting, punching, screaming, breaking things. I can't think of anything we haven't tried. She's not medicated and she's not diagnosed.

Trying sleeping gummies, low demand, predictable bed writing, nothing works. I could cry. So, you know, the comments are kind of all over the board.

I think the only comment that matters, I would have her assessed, try medication and get as much help as whatever diagnosis you are given would provide you. So she doesn't have any diagnosis. No.

So begs the question, why are you here? Right. What made you enter this discussion group?

We are going to get into the importance of diagnosis and how to have your child diagnosed. You can bet that one thing we do not support is self-diagnosis. No.

And in a group of autism support with a child who's not diagnosed and not even talked to a doctor about medication. Have you tried everything? Really?

Have you? Yeah. I think most of us start with the diagnosis.

Yeah. So I, you know, it's hard to, again, we're always empathetic to parents who are in the trenches.

[Julianna Scott] (17:28 - 17:34)
Of course. And maybe, I don't know, she said she's not diagnosed. Is she planning on it?

[Kelley Jensen] (17:34 - 17:50)
So there was several commenters that said, have you thought about diagnosis? That they had started the process of doing it. But again, social media, too much of a factor, maybe lack of education and lack of support and parenting in general, right?

[Julianna Scott] (17:50 - 18:06)
Right. And I'm not saying that getting that diagnosis, as we know, is going to be the end. That's the beginning.

But yeah, if she wants to really understand what's behind it, you need to figure out what's going on. Yes.

[Kelley Jensen] (18:06 - 18:18)
And we talk a lot about how people who are diagnosed don't do enough. But one thing they do well is give you a thorough reason for the behavior and the diagnosis itself. Right.

[Julianna Scott] (18:18 - 18:21)
The behaviors are clear. Yes. What you need to address.

So yes, for sure.

[Kelley Jensen] (18:22 - 19:42)
Let's see. This, as you know, I always like to do something about profound autism. I thought this was a good one and there's a lot of confusion out there about this.

Is there a difference between level three autistic and profound autism? It's a good question, right? It is a great question.

Lots of confusion. Lots and lots of confusion. And this was the most useful response.

Level three is tied to a clinical diagnosis in the DSM-5 based on support needs. Profound autism is not a medical diagnosis. It is a term created to describe autistic people who also have an intellectual disability and need 24-7 care.

All profound autism would fall under level three, but not all level three autistic people have an intellectual disability. So a lot of people rightfully, in my opinion, commented that profound autism needs its due. It needs more, a separate diagnosis perhaps.

It needs additional services. It needs people stop encroaching on it for their own level of autism. Do you think there should be another category?

Yeah, I do. I think that the DSM-5 has not had the effect it intended. So I think that some of these folks that are in a position to do something should be doing a little bit more.

Yes. A lot more, actually. All right.

Thanks for tuning in.

[Julianna Scott] (19:43 - 20:58)
Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Refrigerator Moms. We have a free download that includes a full list of practical to-dos we shared in this episode on our website.

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