Out of Control: Tantrums, Meltdowns, and Panic Attacks
[Julianna] (0:09 - 0:14)
Today, we are talking about tantrums, meltdowns, and panic attacks.
[Kelley] (0:14 - 0:39)
And people on social media love to confuse them, purposely, I think. Everything is labeled a panic attack. Why?
Maybe because a meltdown or a tantrum is viewed as a bad behavior, but really it's quite simple. A tantrum communicates, I want it, but I can't have it. A meltdown communicates, it's all too much, and I can't handle it.
And a panic attack communicates, I'm scared, and I don't know what to do.
[Julianna] (0:41 - 0:56)
Knowing the difference is really helpful when we're in the trenches because we can respond appropriately because the way you respond to those three things is very different. And you use different de-escalation techniques, but they're all really big feelings.
[Kelley] (0:57 - 1:16)
So they need to be addressed, as you said, and again, what's causing them helps you learn positive coping mechanisms for dealing with them and handling those big feelings. So what do we do to avoid de-escalating? When do we let a meltdown just play out?
On and on and on. That's why we're doing this episode.
[Julianna] (1:16 - 1:42)
Yeah, and it's good to think about these things now because when you're in the moment, you're really just reacting, you're not thinking it through. So it's good to kind of have an idea of what each of these are and what the best way to deal with each of these is. So meltdowns, tantrums, panic attacks, they all look different, but they also can look similar.
[Kelley] (1:43 - 1:50)
So particularly in a young child that only has so much form of self-expression, so much language, they do look similar, but they are different.
[Julianna] (1:50 - 2:02)
Yeah. So the similarities, there's biting, shaking, yelling, all the things that you see when you've got a kid sprawled out on the floor at Target. You know, that could be a tantrum or a meltdown.
[Kelley] (2:03 - 2:09)
And a tantrum, a panic attack, meltdown, they could all happen at the same time.
[Julianna] (2:10 - 2:25)
You know, one can move to the other. And there are warning signs for all of these. So kids often are tense, they're the tense muscles, they're the flush cheeks.
You can see when one's coming on. It's very rare that you don't have some warning.
[Kelley] (2:26 - 3:11)
Absolutely. And again, it comes down to limited communication skills for a young child. And tantruming is a natural phenomenon.
It is a developmentally appropriate phenomenon, the terrible twos. But for autistic people, it can last longer as the ability to communicate is strung out a little bit more. And it's important to remember that even if your child's language is developing on schedule, their communication might not be developing on schedule.
Communication at a deeper level, this is what I'm feeling, those big feelings that lead to not understanding why you can't have what you want in this moment or fatigue, hunger that you can't quite communicate, complex emotions about what's going on in the day.
[Julianna] (3:12 - 3:19)
So when they're having a tantrum, the best thing to do is just kind of ignore that, right? Isn't that like kind of best practices? If someone's having a tantrum?
[Kelley] (3:19 - 3:37)
Stay neutral. Yeah, it's to stay neutral. Ignore it if you can.
Redirect. The probably line of defense for a tantrum is to redirect to something different that, I mean, the success is generally pretty good on a tantrum unless they're really dug in, right?
[Julianna] (3:37 - 3:59)
Right, right. But I feel like, okay, in the tantrum mode, like, let's say you're at Target, we've all been there, we're in line, they see Pokemon cards, they see candy, they see something, that's usually like, I want it, I can't have it, they start whining, the tantrum starts, you see it, and then that's when you still have a window of opportunity to redirect.
[Kelley] (3:59 - 4:24)
Yes. But then sometimes it was so much stimuli and Target can't decide between a piece of candy and a toy, and the lights are bright, and there's a lot of people and sounds and noise, and we might go into meltdown phase. We've all been at Target when we couldn't make a decision on which toy we wanted, and it has led from I want it, I can't have it, to this is the oldest way too much for me.
[Julianna] (4:24 - 4:38)
Yeah. Or there's an expectation there on the child's behalf that you don't have that, you know, it's in his brain, that they should have that. And that's where it moves into maybe the meltdown phase.
[Julianna] (4:38 - 4:57)
So before it gets to the meltdown phase, or if it is just a tantrum, you know, the goal there, when you're working with your kid with a tantrum is to get them to recognize that triggering situation for, you know, you and your child, and to communicate better.
[Kelley] (4:57 - 6:06)
Communicate better, offer choices, give time to process the choices, and, you know, sometimes let the tantrum play out, right, because they might move on naturally, if you just have a neutral face, and a neutral body, and give them time to pick between a toy and a piece of candy. Yeah. So panic attacks are different.
And one of the reasons why I'm such a stickler on social media when a child says, or when a parent comments that their child is having a panic attack, is it it's very specific is in the name panic, a synonym for fear. And what is driving that fear in a child is, again, very specific to their life. And if your child is experiencing true panic attacks, you definitely need professional help to get to the bottom of what is causing that fear.
To label it a panic attack, takes away the opportunity to communicate, develop better communication skills with your child. And, again, the neurology of a panic attack is much different.
[Julianna] (6:06 - 6:48)
I feel like the phrase like you saying panic attack is kind of become part of the vernacular, like saying like, oh, I'm so OCD because I like my desk to be organized. I feel like people are saying like, oh, I'm having a panic attack when they just mean like they're anxious. Yes.
So I feel like it's been diluted a little bit. Yes. And I think people are overusing panic attack when it really isn't truly a panic attack, a panic attack.
You know, I've had them. I don't know if you've had one. But like, it is very physiological.
I mean, you know, the breathing the, you know, the crying the all of those things. Yes, it is overwhelming. And it's it's not just like freaking out.
[Kelley] (6:48 - 7:17)
Well, and admittingly with a child sometimes hard to tell because they get beat red. And sometimes they have a breath and all of these things that might mimic a panic attack. But it's important to remember that if it is a true panic attack, there is a fear that's driving it.
And you get to the bottom. That's the root of, you know, are they scared that they're not going to get the toy? What's going to happen?
Then there's still a root fear there that you need to address. Without fear is the root. It's a communication issue.
[Julianna] (7:17 - 7:31)
Right. And there's a lot more in our refrigerator paper, our version of the white paper on our website that really goes into the neurology that defines and differentiates each one of these the tantrum, the meltdown and the panic attack.
[Kelley] (7:32 - 7:43)
So tantrums have an across developmental, right? Yeah, you can have a childhood tantrum. A teen can have a tantrum.
An adult. Yes, often has a time.
[Julianna] (7:43 - 8:08)
But we I mean, starting with childhood tantrums, the terrible twos, although I feel like the threes were pretty terrible with tantrums. Well, and certainly, I'm thinking about some epic tantrums. Actually, I'm thinking some meltdowns tantrums kind of went across the childhood board.
And that's, you know, again, a lot of that is because, you know, your child is small, their communication is not developed.
[Kelley] (8:08 - 8:41)
Well, I will tell you that in our house, we had extreme communication difference. And my kids are only 17 months apart. Yeah.
My son obviously was not talking or communicating at all. Again, you know, communication developments, you point, you scream for something, he wasn't doing any of that, he was climbing on the furniture to get what he wanted. My daughter was the opposite.
She was her language was advanced. And the real life comparison of their tantrums was shocking, because she could say what she wanted, right? Very clearly, very young.
And you know, makes a difference, right?
[Julianna] (8:42 - 10:03)
Yeah, in our house, a lot of those tantrums would be a lot of frustration. So my, my two kids, my boys are 21 months apart. And developmentally, I did feel like they were similar in age.
My oldest was a little delayed, my youngest one a little precocious. So I felt like sometimes I was parenting twins. Yeah.
But and they also, they were both boys, they both like to play with similar things. And I think it was, you know, in some ways, kind of a power move on my younger one's part where he would sometimes be very, you know, he would say maybe a lot. So my oldest one would say, Well, do you want to play this?
And my younger one would be like, Well, maybe, and my older one who is autistic, the gray area of maybe does not work well. So often he would get incredibly frustrated with his younger brother, because he would always waffle and say, Well, maybe I'll do that, maybe blah, blah, blah. And then or he would quit playing or something like that.
And the frustration. So that was a trigger that always led to a tantrum. So we were always negotiating those for sure.
But yes, we were all familiar with the childhood tantrum. And what about the teen tantrum?
[Kelley] (10:03 - 10:44)
Oh, those are brutal. Right? When you have a non verbal child, who can throw a teenage tantrum is brutal, right?
And in our house, my daughter was like a son, the town was a sword, right? And so the biting clap back, which didn't get her way. And it's developmentally appropriate.
Right. And again, the first line of defense is neutrality. Right.
Is right. Don't engage, don't engage, don't fight with your kids. And that's tough, right?
Yeah, these are the two choices. We this is the curfew. Yeah, you cannot go.
But if you won't go, you'll be home at that curfew, right?
[Julianna] (10:45 - 10:47)
And what about the adult? Do you have any tantrums?
[Kelley] (10:49 - 11:07)
To stitch and bitch a bit, you know, sometimes my big thing is I talk to myself, and I mutter and I get very animated. And my husband will often say, What is the problem? Right?
But it's me just having a little mini tantrum under my breath.
[Julianna] (11:07 - 12:21)
Yeah, venting is my go to when I am going to throw a tantrum. I and it depends who I vent to. Like, usually I throw a little tantrum if I have some pet peeves.
One of them is if I have plans with friends, it's set, I'm excited about it. And then someone will say, Oh, I've invited so and so I don't want to be with that so and so and then I'm like, ah, so I definitely need to vent to somebody probably in that same group. Like, uh, you know, now the plans change or to your husband who remains neutral.
Yeah, yes, unless it is your husband who's causing you to tantrum. Which I so the other day, I have this pet peeve. And my husband will use the word aspirin to mean everything like aspirin means acetaminophen or ibuprofen.
And I don't know why like it totally bugs me and he did it again to mean Advil. And I have corrected him in the past, but I threw a little tantrum about it. And I'm just like, you know, like, why can you not use the use the proper word vernacular.
And so I do have a friend who I immediately texted and said, like, this is a real problem in my marriage.
[Kelley] (12:22 - 12:47)
I think you're doing all right. But meltdowns are much more serious and much harder to redirect. Yes, or vent to a friend about yes, no matter your age and particularly for autism.
The autistic meltdown is awful. It's awful for everyone. The child especially.
Remember, I remember distinctly you calling and telling me about your Sunday Bloody Sunday meltdown at Easter.
[Julianna] (12:47 - 13:57)
Yes. Okay, I should have known. I'm going to say this.
I knew the trigger. The trigger was going somewhere where he had to be contained. It was Easter Sunday Mass, the Super Bowl of masses.
So tons of people. So we went the family the four of us went. My oldest was just livid.
Really from the get go like didn't even want to get in the car. That should have been the signal like to me that it should have but for some reason I'm like we're going to do this. It's going to work out.
It's going to be fine. 30 years of Catholicism. You have to go to Easter Mass.
Exactly. So we go there and my very kind Jewish husband took you know our youngest son in and stayed the whole time in Mass while I grappled literally with our our oldest son who was screaming top of his lungs at everyone who was going inside you know saying hey lady in the hat you know I hate you and you know it was really a glorious Easter and no one gave us the time of day. I mean some really dirty looks.
[Kelley] (13:58 - 13:59)
Well you know it is Easter Sunday.
[Julianna] (13:59 - 14:04)
It is nice to be really charitable and Christian on that day or Jewish apparently.
[Julianna] (14:05 - 14:58)
Yeah. And so no it was brutal and I you know the takeaway wasn't to me that you know my son needed to go to Mass more or like it was it was this is a big trigger. It's overwhelming for him the noises the people the sitting still all of those things it was way too much the sensory overload the expectations the out of routine.
If it has been something very important to us that you know we wanted him to attend Mass every Sunday we should have done that in a much different way. You know we should have done incremental. Yeah.
We had a plan maybe maybe consult with an ABA therapist and have you know and and make that happen. Right. But it was just a recipe for disaster and I it was not his fault that that meltdown was all on me.
[Kelley] (14:58 - 15:25)
Well it usually is right. I mean I remember my son vividly having a meltdown on Christmas Day Christmas you know holidays hard anyway the presents the smells the family the routine the routine and for some reason I insisted that we get a picture. I had matching t-shirts and I wanted him to get a picture and he was snapped even before I kept insisting on it.
[Julianna] (15:25 - 15:26)
Yeah.
[Kelley] (15:26 - 15:53)
You know he turned around and slapped somebody and thankfully it was a cousin like his cousins you know show him so much grace and kindness. But it was awful for him that behavior was awful for him and I should have let it go and not done to. Now that was a lesson in how to approach the holidays as you had a lesson in how to approach church.
Yeah. You have to learn from these things or they're going to happen again.
[Julianna] (15:53 - 16:22)
Right and these meltdowns they are telling us they're giving us good information. Absolutely. They're giving us good information about behaviors and triggers and needs and needs and communication and all of these things.
So you know looking at those meltdowns which are really what we're talking about mostly it's like the the the meltdowns where they are really unable to control themselves and that's when you think okay this is behavior I need to look at.
[Kelley] (16:23 - 16:23)
Yeah.
[Julianna] (16:23 - 16:48)
What are the antecedents you know what do I need to you know call like is this something we need to talk about in our behavior plan with the therapist with the teacher you know these are the things to look out for maybe it's medication that helps them buy them a little time before they get to the meltdown. Yeah. But this is really where you're getting a lot of good information about how they are able to cope and not cope.
[Kelley] (16:48 - 17:16)
And we have other episodes where we talk we talk specifically about ABA we talk about those modalities of therapy that help you break down behavior and analyze behavior and then we talk about some people who are distinctly opposed to those those type of therapies but what I really want to get across is one of the benefits of you're having your child enrolled in a therapy that's ongoing is the ability to go postmortem and break out.
[Julianna] (17:16 - 17:16)
Yeah.
[Kelley] (17:17 - 17:52)
Sometimes you still I mean I would say that I didn't have perspective on some of the worst meltdowns until I had talked to somebody other than my immediate family. Yeah. It wasn't there and they started asking me questions that I hadn't even thought of.
You know you're in it you're sort of in the storm and you don't always see things and so families that choose to do all of the therapy themselves to homeschool I mean that's a lot of pressure. So I always encourage you to have an objective resource and you know social media groups are great but they don't know you they don't know your family they don't know your situation. So there's no substitute for somebody in your home.
[Julianna] (17:52 - 18:11)
And also just trying to avoid the meltdown isn't the way to do it either just to say okay we're never going to go to church again or we're never going to go to Target because there's just too much you know that's going to perhaps encourage a meltdown. Like those aren't the answers if those things are important to you which you know.
[Kelley] (18:12 - 18:17)
I mean going to Target or going to the grocery store is an important life skill right. So you have right you're going to have to dive in there.
[Julianna] (18:17 - 19:01)
Right. So just avoiding all triggers isn't really a reasonable approach or possible. Right.
So we also talk a little bit more about why autistic neurology directly leads to struggling with the stimulatory overload in our paper and we found that that understanding helped us be more empathetic to what our kids were going through and we highly recommend reading that. Also about panic attacks I know we're not talking too much about panic attacks but there is no developmental purpose to a panic attack which we've talked about with tantrums and meltdowns that there is some. So it's really fear-based and again you've got to go talk to a medical professional if your child's having a panic attack.
[Kelley] (19:01 - 19:15)
Yeah it's really a some sort of a fear that is driving the behavior may be worn and maybe some sort of trauma you know and though that information could take you a while to dig out of a very small child. So again panic attacks.
[Julianna] (19:15 - 19:18)
But again yes and it's very good to know the difference. Yes.
[Kelley] (19:19 - 20:40)
So now we're at the part of the paper we're talking you can see our papers here in every episode and every paper where we talk about what we would do in these very real situations that we all grapple with every day. Our adult children child was having a meltdown and that happens. Yes.
Meltdowns are again a feature of autism. We go back to the basics when they're having a meltdown again what is the antecedent what led to the behavior. Hopefully by the time your child is an adult you have developed a shorthand for communication in those episodes.
Start with breathing and start with modeling the behavior you want your child to have. So a lot of times we know that a meltdown is just it's all too much. So what can you strip away in that moment?
Deep breath no language or maybe just short amount of language maybe a short small touch. At that point it depends on your child and if the meltdowns get physical being prepared for that hopefully as an adult they have maybe a PRN you know a prescription is something they're prone to having meltdowns that you can give them that they can take that will help deescalate them. It's all about deescalating and it's all about helping them remember what they do to calm down.
[Julianna] (20:40 - 21:28)
Yeah and my son he's 24 and he still I mean he certainly doesn't have a meltdown like he did way back when. But but again it's like it's the function now he can communicate. Like we were just on a Zoom call not long ago and we were talking about something and he even he was able to communicate.
He's like we were talking about something that you know was starting to get him upset and he's like okay I'm feeling a little nauseous and I need a break. And he went off and took a break and then we started our conversation again later. And so now he's really able to communicate that.
Whereas before it would have just escalated because he wouldn't have been able to verbalize that or even understand what was happening.
[Kelley] (21:28 - 22:14)
Yeah so with my son the post-mortem discussion has something that's fairly recent. You know we had a fairly recent burst in his language which is awesome. But it has allowed for a lot more communication which has really helped and I'm not doing as much guessing.
So it's really important to get in post-mortem and what was the trigger? Yeah what was the trigger? What did you see?
And you know we have learned a lot about group activities. And you know one thing is he's a great bowler. He loves to go bowling.
But he doesn't necessarily want to bowl with a group. He wants to bowl and get out of there. Yeah and so we don't do group bowling anymore.
If he wants to go bowling he goes on his own and when he's done he leaves. And that's great information that has stopped some of the meltdowns that we were having at the bowling alley.
[Julianna] (22:14 - 22:39)
Absolutely and often it is sort of like the solution is to remove yourself from whatever it is that might trigger that meltdown. Or ultimately communicate like that's upsetting and you know like let's let's you know figure it out. But um or or they they developed those same coping skills that we were talking about you know.
[Kelley] (22:39 - 22:42)
Yeah you do exactly that you did not want to be.
[Julianna] (22:42 - 22:51)
Vent or remove yourself. Removing myself is always a good thing. Everyone around me would would agree.
I would agree.
[Kelley] (22:54 - 23:00)
All right what about if it's there in school and they're having meltdowns in school what do you suggest?
[Julianna] (23:00 - 24:20)
Okay so this it's really common that kids will keep it together in school and then melt down at home. That can be a function of masking. It could be a function of you know there's a routine and there's those expectations and then they come home and then it's a safe place where they can let down.
And so that is not uncommon so it's really important to determine what might have changed if they if they were holding it together at school and then all of a sudden having meltdowns at school where it used to be a very commonplace. Usually there's something that's changed there so it's really important to find out. Talk to the teacher.
Is there a new kid in the class? Have they rearranged the schedule? Is the yard duty situation different?
You know anything that might explain what might have occurred to cause that meltdown. So meltdowns are usually caused by a lack of flexibility and unclear expectations. Have those expectations changed and the child really wasn't adapting to it or it was unclear about that.
So really you know do your do some detective work and figure out what that trigger was. It always goes back to what is the trigger.
[Kelley] (24:21 - 24:40)
And you talk about flexibility and flexibility and autism and flexibility and autism. It's something you cannot put enough information at. You cannot put enough study at because these are people who are by definition very inflexible and their routine, the slice bit of their routine that you didn't even notice maybe.
[Julianna] (24:42 - 24:49)
Maybe they change desks. Maybe they rearrange the desks. Maybe the blue pen is dried out.
[Kelley] (24:49 - 25:03)
You know these are things that the more information that they can articulate the better the accommodation. Absolutely. So here we are at the to-dos list.
You know I love a list. You love a list.
[Julianna] (25:03 - 25:03)
I love a list.
[Kelley] (25:03 - 25:39)
So we put lists in the papers things that you can do in the immediate things that you can do in the short-term, long-term, and things that are blocked. Meaning don't do this, right? So in the immediate when your child is having a tantrum or a meltdown or panic attack you have to you can start with your reaction.
non-reactive, nothing more important than the way you control yourself that will your child will find your center. Breathing, squeezy balls, whatever you are developing as a positive coping mechanism, reach for those in that moment. I think that's good.
[Julianna] (25:40 - 26:07)
I know your daughter has said that she really absorbed your reaction to the meltdowns and tantrums that her brother was having. So it's good for everybody, siblings included, husbands to like model that behavior. That if you know if you're kind of calm, cool, and collected during those meltdowns you know everyone sort of benefits from that.
[Kelley] (26:07 - 26:29)
And it takes practice. You're not going to do it 100% of the time. Don't get down on yourself if you just couldn't do it and you just you had a reaction yourself, you had your own.
Thank you. You had your own meltdown over the tantrum. I mean that happens, right?
But the more you practice, fortunately, hopefully, the better that you get at it and again the value of a good therapist or coach that you can talk to.
[Julianna] (26:29 - 26:45)
Yeah. Another one immediately that you could do is to you know model the most positive coping mechanisms that's the most appropriate for the situation you're in. So it's like the breathing, squeeze a ball, you know, a phrase, you know, quiet your body.
[Kelley] (26:45 - 26:54)
And I'm just going to say this because it happens sometimes you're in target and it's always target. I know. I have the same reaction.
[Julianna] (26:55 - 27:03)
Trust me, I'm very afraid that my target has footage of some really poorly handled meltdown target.
[Kelley] (27:03 - 27:24)
If you're listening, we need a sensory room. Delete that footage. Give us a sensory room.
But sometimes you got to call it, right? So sometimes and in the paper, I think we we go a little bit more into safe restraint in one of the one of the papers. Yes.
That might it might have to happen.
[Julianna] (27:25 - 27:28)
Well, the number one thing is everyone needs to be safe.
[Kelley] (27:28 - 27:29)
Safe, yes.
[Julianna] (27:29 - 27:55)
So, you know, fortunately, a lot of the tantrums that my meltdown, sorry, I got to use the correct phrasing, were having at home, there was a period of time where it required restraint and safety first for sure for him, for his brother, for myself, my husband and I learned how to safely restrain him and we got it down to a science.
[Kelley] (27:55 - 28:09)
It's in the to do's and again, it's in the paper, but I just wanted to mention it if you're at target and you feel like this is not going to end, you might have to pick them up and move them to the car and right, you know, right, the car might have to stay there.
[Julianna] (28:09 - 28:17)
But I do want to mention the the restraint because I remember I had never in my life thought that I'd have to learn how to restrain my child.
[Kelley] (28:17 - 28:17)
Yeah.
[Julianna] (28:18 - 28:59)
And it is something that as a parent, you know, you're just thinking like, wow, this is this is kind of next level. And it was almost embarrassing to me at the beginning to like to realize like I had to restrain my child because he was so out of control. Like I felt like, you know, it was my responsibility that he, you know, got this far.
Yeah. And and that now I was having to restrain him sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes two hours. And these meltdowns could last.
And I do want people to know that it is not unusual. And actually it was our ABA therapist who taught us how to do a safe restraint hold. And it required me like basically wrapping my body around his.
[Kelley] (28:59 - 29:20)
Well, and it's kind of that's a compression. Yeah, actually gives him some reassurance. He's hearing your heartbeat.
He's hearing your breathing. And it does have the effect of deescalating him. Maybe not the beginning, but eventually if you stick with it.
And we're not saying to that safe restraint is is also you're not punishing him.
[Julianna] (29:20 - 29:20)
Absolutely not.
[Kelley] (29:20 - 29:22)
You are there. It's a physical thing.
[Julianna] (29:22 - 29:35)
No, it is not punitive in the least. It is really, really empathetic. Yeah.
In a lot of ways. Like I felt like, you know, we we both needed to kind of, you know, be in that hold. Yeah.
[Kelley] (29:35 - 29:41)
You know, and I remember with my son, he I wanted to turn through osmosis, you know, calm just a cocoon.
[Julianna] (29:41 - 29:41)
Yeah.
[Kelley] (29:41 - 30:34)
I remember my son used to like to wrap in a blanket. And that turned out to be really a meltdown lifesaper is that blanket. It wasn't a weighted blanket.
You hear a lot about weighted blankets, but he didn't particularly care for the weighted blankets. But he did like to be tightly wound into a blanket. And you know, it ended up being a lifesaver that we learned about.
So pay attention to all of these things. And again, safe restraint. Yeah.
In the paper. Long term to do this copious notes and compare what change you ask questions of people that were around. My daughter used to give the best feedback.
She would have she would see things I wouldn't see. And it would lead to conversations that I could have with her post mortem about how it made her feel it was important. The net that with it comes a shorthand for communication that you can all use in those high stress moments.
[Julianna] (30:34 - 30:55)
Yeah. Yeah. So some of the things we would never recommend would be do not punish your child in the moment of crisis as is not this will only create more maladaptive behavior in the future.
Even if those new behaviors are more convenient for you, there is no shortcut in this developmental phase. You do not punish a meltdown.
[Julianna] (30:56 - 31:27)
They are already in, you know, they're already feeling horrible. They don't like that. It's unlike a tantrum, you know, they're not just trying to get a cookie when they're in a meltdown mode.
There's no, so if you get, you know, if you punish them in that phase, it's just piling on at that point. Yeah. More, more often than not when we would do our post mortem over a tantrum or a meltdown.
Sorry. We, we, I mean, it was clear they're just as distressed by it.
[Kelley] (31:28 - 31:28)
Absolutely.
[Julianna] (31:28 - 31:32)
They're, they're not happy about that tantrum. They didn't, it's not a win. Right.
[Kelley] (31:33 - 32:23)
And then, you know, even if the tantrum, they want it, they can't have it, they want that cookie, they can't have that cookie. You can hold your ground if there is a, if there's a legitimate reason or, you know, they want two things and they can only have one. You can hold your ground while still showing empathy and letting your child express his frustration.
Yeah, sometimes it's terrible. It's a bummer. Right.
And get it all out. Let's, let's see what what happens. Let's remind ourselves that when we do get cookies, that the cookie might be on Saturday or whatever, or maybe you end up giving a half a cookie.
Right. I mean, I used to kind of know that if I had two cookies, he was going to want two cookies. So I could cut him down to one cookie by having two cookies, right?
Because that was negotiation we have. But the negotiation doesn't make you a weak parent. It makes you make, it reinforces communication.
[Julianna] (32:23 - 32:23)
Right.
[Kelley] (32:24 - 32:26)
And then being able to speak their needs.
[Julianna] (32:26 - 33:37)
Right. Sometimes a punishment could look like just staying somewhere too long. Like it, you know, it's Sunday Mass, you know, staying was sort of a punishment for all of us.
Right. You know, it's, if your, if your child needs to remove themselves or you need to remove your child from the situation, that's not necessarily giving in to them. No.
It's just, it's good for everybody to say, okay, you know what? This, this isn't working for anyone. This is just too much.
Right. So we're leaving. And we didn't talk about earlier, but when we were talking about the differences between, you know, tantrums and meltdowns.
Tantrums, we talk about negotiation. Sometimes you can, you know, a tantrum can be negotiated. There's, there's a negotiation involved.
Absolutely. But like, I, I knew when my son was in a tantrum and there was like a reasonable negotiation going on. Like, okay, well, if, you know, if you do this, then we will do this.
Right. But when he was in a meltdown, the negotiations were something like, I will do this for a million dollars. You know, instead of like a Pokemon card or something, it's like, okay, we're not in negotiation, but this is, this is not a realistic negotiation.
You're like writing a piece of paper. Here's a $9.
[Kelley] (33:38 - 33:38)
Exactly.
[Julianna] (33:38 - 33:45)
It's like, it would start to get so unreasonable. It was clearly not a tantrum at that point.
[Kelley] (33:46 - 33:54)
And then another thing, this is probably the most important thing to block is what people think of your child. Right?
[Julianna] (33:55 - 33:56)
One who's telling them that, yes, I know.
[Kelley] (33:57 - 34:36)
You, you should apologize for disturbances. If they damage property, of course, you should pay for for that. And to the extent you can set realistic boundaries.
You don't owe anybody an explanation for your child. So, yeah, you block that and put all that energy into your child and your family. Agreed.
So why is this conversation important? You know, we really wanted to do this episode because tantrums, meltdowns, panic attacks are part of the human experience. They are especially acute for people who have autism and we want everybody to be armed with the best information to negotiate and live through these maladaptive behaviors.
[Julianna] (34:37 - 35:46)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Reprigerator Moms. We have a free download that includes a full list of practical to-dos we shared in the episode on our website. The paper includes additional what would we do's and background information on everything we talked about today.
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